CyKoPoPe: God is dead, and meat is murder Mormon: How do you know God is dead? CyKoPoPe: how do you know God is alive? or ever existed in the first place? CyKoPoPe: ever heard of science? CyKoPoPe: the big bang? Mormon: I have all things as a testimony of God. The planets that move in their proper order testify that there is a supreme creator. Mormon: You dont know what cause the big bang. It may have been god that got it started. Mormon: You have no scientific evidence that their is no God. I do believe in science I am an engineer. CyKoPoPe: but there is no order to the universe. in fact, the only thing close to order is the fact that nothing happens in the universe unless it creates more chaos. Thus, if God created the Universe, he would've made more order, which is an axiom CyKoPoPe: it's called entropy CyKoPoPe: what evidence do you have to show that God exists besides blind ignorant faith? Mormon: You are wrong there is great order. The changes of this earth being the exact distance from the sun so that we are not to hot or not to cold is order. The atmosphere being exact to support life is order. The Rotation of all the planets is order. Its not like a deck of cards falling on the ground and being in order. Its like someone took those cards and organized them in order Mormon: after they fell. Mormon: Now that you acknowledge that you can not prove there is no god. My evidence is prayer and meditation to my god and the knowledge came to me. Compasion to my fellow human beings. Much like you came to an understanding the meat is bad. CyKoPoPe: but if the universe is infinite, which, by its very definition is true, then it could have randomly come across that coincidental configuration. Mormon: Not in an eternal attempt could you get a deck of card to fall on the ground in order. So is it with the organization of the universe. Not in an eternal ramdom attempt. CyKoPoPe: i'm not against compassion. If anything, you religious fanatics are against compassion. How many wars were started for science? Mormon: Im not the tradition religion. CyKoPoPe: and what is your religion? Mormon: I know why the ancient religions started wars. Mormon: Mormon. The church of Jesus christ of latter day saints. Mormon: Religions hate us. CyKoPoPe: the mormons were started by an egomaniac looking for a way to manipulate people into giving him money and attention. He used religion as a guise to further his own ends Mormon: Well if thats what Joseph smith wanted he got none of it. Today no minister is paid. Everyone in the church works. CyKoPoPe: and there is a chance of randomly creating a situation suitable for life. Mormon: Too many variable there needs to be a given somewhere. CyKoPoPe: even so, with infinite rolls of the proverbial "die", there is a chance, albeit a very small one CyKoPoPe: and if there is a god, how can you prove that there really is a God that cares about humanity? Mormon: Well you know what I figure. If your right then you will die and I will die and this will all be mute. If im right I will have lived a happy life serving my fellow man and participating in a religion that teachs love and that we are judged in levels and not as heaven or hell. And if my religion is right I will be made a god to have eternal sex with my wife and create more worlds for our children to take bodies. So either way its fine. CyKoPoPe: but what if the Satanists are right? or the Buddhists? or the Wiccans or one of the thousands of other religions with beliefs opposing yours? Mormon: OH yes sprititual babies from Celestial sex. You see why other religions dont like us? CyKoPoPe: i've heard more outlandish views. Mormon: They all have part of the truth. That is what are religion teaches. That after the apostles were killed men started to interpret the scriptures the way they wanted. The other religions did the same thats why they believe what they do. But you know the budist believe in life as all suffering and they eventually go to paradice. So ill take that too. CyKoPoPe: but what of the Pre-JudeoChristian religions, like the GraecoRoman Pantheon or even the Prehistoric maternal religions? CyKoPoPe: they obviously didn't interpret the bible Mormon: I figure the best way to do it is investigate all the religions then find the one that you would want to be part of. If its true you won the lottery. Mormon: They were responding to their environment. Im not real sure the prophet hasn't come out about them yet . We will be getting possible more scripture from the tribes as the members of the church are able to handle more knowledge. CyKoPoPe: but who's to say that by simply believing in something one will achieve eternal happiness? What of the people who kill in the name of Jesus or God? Are they better off than an atheist who eases the suffering of his fellow man? Mormon: My own theory is that man evolved with gods start. But god must work with scientific laws. Thus it took a while for those pre-historic human bodies to evolve until god started sending spirits into the bodies. CyKoPoPe: and what gives validity to this "prophet?" I've seen drunkards on the street that claim to talk to god. How are they any less inspired than Moses or Joseph Smith? CyKoPoPe: Why is there no "Book of Bob Jones" or whoever? Mormon: No someone who kills has broken a greater. The person who doesn't believe in God will have his chance. Mormons believe that all people will have a change to hear the plan. Like it say in the Bible. If someone dies without hearing it they will have the chance to hear it in the spirit world. Mormon: Prophets just follow a pattern. They bring forth scripture. They testify normally agains the normal flow of the times. They perform miricles. They testify of god. Thy have visions. They die as a marter not due to their own insanity. ect. Mormon: There is a big difference between dieing as a marter by stapping bomb on your back and running into a building in the name of jesus and someone who is testifying of the true nature of god and someone kills you in mid-word. CyKoPoPe: Well, what if I said that my comb was God, because I heard it talk to me and it dictated a new Religion? And what if I happened to have a few people who believed what I had to say? And, for the sake of argument, lets say that these followers of mine saw me do something and interpreted it as a miracle. Then the government of some third world dictatorial country I happen to be in arrests me for on trumped-up charges, and I get executed. Would that make me a prophet? Mormon: It would make you a prophet to the people that may follow you. Now the things that this organization does may be quite interesting. I suppose you could make up strange doctrine. But it must be appealing and it cant steal any of the other religions beliefs as origional. Mormon: See the Mormons are so appealing because the docrine fits the bible. Everything we believe is found in the bible. The book of Mormon is the history of people that lived in south america. We have the temples down there as evidence of their lives. You would need a good catch. CyKoPoPe: And why not? If I truly thought that God was my comb, and that God said, for instance, that anyone who believes in Mormonism would burn in eternal suffering when they die, then how would one tell what would happen to you when you died? CyKoPoPe: But the Mayans and the Incas and the Aztecs had a completely different system of beliefs than the Christians and Jews. They practiced human sacrifice, and worshipped multiple deities for example. CyKoPoPe: and, believe it or not, they were hundreds of years ahead of the westerners as far as technology goes. they had a calendar and running water far before the Romans and Hebrews did Mormon: Between the years of 600BC to 400AD there was a group of people that had the full truth. They were eventully killed and the beliefs they had were changed. They started to interpret thier own ways of doing things Mormon: For example god taught the law of moses down there also. But when the people were tired of the law the kings changed things after they killed the apostles there that were organized when Jesus went to see his other sheep which were them. Mormon: They did a few revisions like using Humans instead of a lamb or grain for sacrafice. CyKoPoPe: sheep? are you comparing humans to mere helpless herd animals? CyKoPoPe: If we are sheep, and God is the shepherd, then wouldn't that mean that in the long run, he's just going to exploit us for his own survival? Mormon: No Im saying there were people that started looking a combs and said they saw god. Then would say god has changes the law we will now start using humans to sacrafice. Like it not buddy God had man sacraficing lambs. I didn't try to do that on perpose sorry. Mormon: Sorry im typing like a mad man. Mormon: wrong letter no letter ect. CyKoPoPe: But who's to say that Moses or Abraham had any more validity than my rantings about a comb? CyKoPoPe: that's what i'm trying to say. if you look at it objectively, there's no real way of ascertaining who is telling the truth. It's not as if God came down in front of everyone and said, "Moses (or whoever) has it all down right. Listen to him." The only way any religion had any validity to start with was dependent on how gullible the people listening were. Mormon: You have a good point. I guess thats where our intelligence and spirit comes in . All we can do is kneel down and ask god if this prophet is true and if the doctrine is true and believe that we will get an answer as a spirit child of him and a brother of everyone on this earth. Mormon: I was a missionary in Chile. I joined the mormon church in 1987 at the age of 21. I asked and got an answer. CyKoPoPe: But if we're all brothers, (or at least cousins, as the theory of evolution can prove), and we all have differing views, who's to say whether or not there's a God, or if Jesus is the son of God, or if god is a comb. CyKoPoPe: how do you know that it isn't all just human intuition, rather than divine intervention, that answers your questions? CyKoPoPe: How can you really be sure it's God talking to you and not your own conscience? Mormon: Well I believe there is a spirit that is much like a transmitted singal that coveres the entire earth. I touched into it and it was like a burst of intelligence. I didn't want to feel it and I didn't will it to come to me. I was just asking if the Book of Mormon was true. After reading it and debating with the mormon missionaries. Mormon: I believe that same spirit is part of our conscience like you say. Mormon: I believe that the feeling you have that meat is bad is testified by this spirit to a certain degree. CyKoPoPe: what if it was your own latent philosophy brought into your consciousness by reading it from an outside source? CyKoPoPe: i don't think meat is bad. I just said it's murder. CyKoPoPe: veganism is murder too. Plants are alive until you eat them Mormon: That whats do difficult if my belief is true . This spirit must testify of all truth thus if you are in a religion that has some truths correct then you will get the feeling but if you dont use you head and heart to test all the beliefs you will be mistaken in the fullness of the truth. Mormon: What do you eat?> CyKoPoPe: but it gets down to the question of "them or me?" so I choose to perpetuate my own existence at the expense of other life forms CyKoPoPe: how do you know what is true? Mormon: I didn't even get the knowledge of felling the spirit from an outside source. I was just praying and this burst of intelligence and warmth came over me. Mormon: So are you in the process of dieing? Mormon: You cant eat anything because all things are alive. CyKoPoPe: ah, but you see, you PRAYED. You wouldn't know about praying unless someone told you about it. It's an extrinsic value that was given to you by your parents or whoever CyKoPoPe: I know. If I choose to live, others must die. I accept that. My own self-preservation is more important to me than the comparatively short life of a cow, or a carrot, or whatever. Mormon: Yes that is true but there is no way i could will the feeling that came over me because it happened in the middle of my own thought which had my mind directed away from such an event. CyKoPoPe: Perhaps it was an earlier, repressed event that came into your mind through some sort of word association. That's what the basis of most Freudian awakenings is. Mormon: Well i dont know what to say about your beliefs. I think your noble for caring about animal. CyKoPoPe: I care for animals and plants to a certain point. I'm not willing to give up my own existence in the name of nobility. Mormon: That may have been the case a freudian awakening. But im too happy with my wife and child and seen the church grow and fill the earth as all us members serve from the top to the bottom without pay. We are not in protitution of our services like other faiths that pay ministers and preachers ect. Mormon: I get too much joy from the experience much like you do with supporting your cause. Mormon: We dig in our heals because there is so much opposition against us. CyKoPoPe: Maybe so. You like your church, and I respect that. But you shouldn't say that God "showed you the way" if there's a simpler, more scientific reason for it Mormon: I can say that because I believe that god may have use d some scientific method for me to feel what I did. Mormon: As long as I use that methode on a constant bases as prove all the doctine of the church to be true. I dont care if its scientic or not . If its scientific then that science is proving god because it directs me to a prophet that has seen him and continues to see him. Mormon: Our brains are really just memory chips and what pulls thoughts out is a mystery anyway. CyKoPoPe: how so? Are you implying that "god" used your own inherent system of beliefs, coupled with a previously existent thought association towards the Mormon faith, to bring you to some "realization"? CyKoPoPe: what pulls memories out is repetition and thought association. If I remember a single part of an experience, and that part is experienced again, the previous experience will also come back to me, by simple freudian association. simple as that Mormon: Very possible, But I belive it was more concentrated on the actual question. When I said is the book of mormon true it may have been a relaease of hormones triggers by the spirit based on there being a clear pathway created on my own reading and investigation.Remember I had already researched the mormons somewhat dureing the the time I way studying. Mormon: I do need to go. Take it easy. CyKoPoPe: will do